Like this topic. Gives me a chance to play devil's advocate. I guess I have many and conflicting views on this topic, and having seen the programme in action in the US and in Saudi Arabia (arguably two of the most prosletysing and devout countries of the world and also in Lebanon, arguably one of the most religiously and spiritually divided countries of the world as well as living in the UK which is definately the most secular country in the world.

I know the programme is not about religion, but about spirituality, but to the uninitiated that distinction is nigh on meaningless. In all those countries the programme works well and countles people get well (apart from Lebanon where nothing really works anyway and the fellowship continually collapses). But, here in the UK and speaking as an agnostic with countless agnostic and atheist friends in great recovery, we find that the 12 step programme functions regardless of religious feeling, spiritual sentiment or development etc. In fact i will take it a bit further, and i do this as someone who loves going to meetings in the US. I would argue that if you included the Lord's prayer at the end of a meeting in the UK, the room would empty, and those left behind would certainly not know the words. There is a fine balance to be had, and I for one will allow anyone to recover however they wish. All i have is my own personal experience and that in no way has anything to do with what is right for you or anybody else. What gets my goat however is the slightly patronising and shaming looks and words one can get when one gets the courage up to exclaim what one believes or not. The day where I was told by someone that 'all I needed in order to feel better was to get on my knees and pray', is the day where it crystallised for me that we have to be Oh so careful about how we share our experience in this area.

Short Term is the slippery slope here. A short term abatement of symptoms is far from success or anything that resembles recovery. I would suggest that if one were to continue the study for more than one year the outcomes might be very different. Prayer, meditation and service to others is only a part of AA and it may be a bit of an unfair generalization to suggest that that sum of the parts equal the whole. Finally, as Bulldog suggests spirituality is not a pill to be taken but rather a process that supports recovery and I would suggest quality of life in general. NOT GOD or Goddess but spirituality !

Agree with you Doc. Just saying that I think the two can get too easily confused and at a time when we really need to be reaching out I think we need to very clear about what the message is.

Scanditherapist,
Agree, particularly to our clients! Too many have failed trying to live another persons recovery or even worse another counselors.

Isn't it funny how there is always a new way, or a new pill that will make recovery easier and softer. When the guys started AA they made it perfectly clear that a close relationship "with a GOD of your understanding was necessary. Now unless one of the psycho babblers starts walking on water this will be just another way to do recovery their way. I own a treatment center that is based on the way the program is spelled out in the book. I also have been sober for 24 years, and I have yet to seen "happy" long term recovery done in any other way. There is no need to improved on what "the Book" says. Feeling better and self respect come from a loving relationship with God, and doing the things set out in the program. "There is no God if you are him!" Controlled studies are just that! Controlled!

Scott, the actual sober bulldog here, the last reply was by Doc B Lynn a long time friend and associate. He just jumped in not realising it was my page. He raises good points. We appreciate your input and participation.

Hugs

Bdawg

You know Scott, I have been sober for a while and have started, run, recreated and consulted to lots of centres and seen many clients. I love recovery and go to meetings every week (where they are available) and try to start them where they are not. I guess I am a passionate disciple of the 12 step recovery programme. However, both in examining my own character defects and in developing myself professionally I have had to move out of my comfort zone. One reason for that is that I believe a reluctance to accept other ways than mine is a reflection of an insecurity I have about me. So, I have had to engage with folks who have a background in harm reduction, substitution therapy, SMART recovery, client advocates who have simply stopped. The bag is mixed. I liked some of them, not others. Some reported great success and evidenced it with clients who were very happy and I guess it would be arrogant of me to say otherwise and then I would be doing that thing that i dislike most, people who dismiss 12 step recovery based on prejudice and misinformation. That street has to go both ways.

I believe firmly in in our primary purpose. I believe it is MY primary purpose, but have had to learn that if I let my own biases, ignorance and judgement to flourish then I end up doing the opposite of that purpose. So, listening to folks and seeing it from their angle invariably makes for a better sales pitch.

Scott, you are absolutley correct, well almost. You see your program works for those who fit the mold and that is a very good thing. The problem is when you try to bang the square peg into the round hole or paint all those who need help with one broad brush. This is when we begin to blame our clients for our failures, you see it is not only right church that is important but also the right pew. Yes studies can be controlled just as you control the way you report your own outcomes. No person who has been in the field who has thier eyes open would deny the power of the program (AA)and I have 38 years of treating all kinds of folks in all kinds of settings all over the world. The problem is that when the only tool you have is a hammer everything starts to look like a nail. Don't turn your back on those who believe differntly than you do , sprituality comes in many packages and recovery is a personal journey. Where we do agree is that recovery and sprtuality live together , please just don't define my sprtuality and I will keep off of yours. Yours in sprituality and recovery docblynn

Scott, you are absolutely correct, well almost. You see your program works for those who fit the mold and that is a very good thing. The problem is when you try to bang the square peg into the round hole or paint all those who need help with one broad brush. This is when we begin to blame our clients for our failures, you see it is not only right church that is important but also the right pew. Yes studies can be controlled just as you control the way you report your own outcomes. No person who has been in the field who has their eyes open would deny the power of the program (AA)and I have 38 years of treating all kinds of folks in all kinds of settings all over the world. The problem is that when the only tool you have is a hammer everything starts to look like a nail. Don't turn your back on those who believe differently than you do , spirituality comes in many packages and recovery is a personal journey. Where we do agree is that recovery and spirituality live together , please just don't define my spirituality and I will keep off of yours. Yours in spirituality and recovery docblynn

I think that in recovery we have to respect and understand the patient past spirituality and try to reconcilate him with it even if it's in contrary of our own opinion! This will facilitates his equilibrium building up back, because this is what was familiar to his individual psycho. Spirituality has to be the central pivot of recovery. Mental therapy could do miracles. I'm quite sure that for long term trails results will be in the other side.

In AA in this part of the state, it's becoming rare for people to identify themselves simply as alcoholics. People usually identify themselves as addicts and alcoholics, and more and more, people are coming in who identify themselves simply as addicts. The official AA policy on this is pretty explicit, but at least in this area, it is ignored. I suspect that we in Southern Connecticut are not alone in finding that straight alcoholics in AA are becoming a minority in our groups. I've struggled with this subject a bit myself. When I first came in I felt that drugs and alcohol really are the same- that people use them for the same reason- to effect a drastic change in personality in response to a spiritual malady. And the solution to addiction to drugs or alcohol is the same too- through working the steps to effect a personality change and relieve the spiritual malady. Drug addiction seems to me to be similar to alcohol in a way that other addictions are not- cigarettes and food, sex and gambling, may cause problems in peoples' lives similar to those that result from drug and alcohol addition, but I don't think those things cause a fundamental personality change the way that drugs and alcohol do. So it makes sense to me that AA should be open to people who identify themselves as drug addicts only. However, my experience over the past couple years is that straight drug addicts seem to have trouble staying clean in AA. I'm a minority in AA in that I only abused alcohol- it did everything for me that I needed. And I've found that when I've spoken in shelters and treatment centers, that the alcoholics seem engaged, but the addicts are restless and bored. Likewise, I am usually riveted when I hear alcoholics speak, but often merely interested when I listen to addicts. So maybe there's something to be said for a strict interpretation of unity of purpose after all. The message that AA's purpose is to help alcoholics stay sober and to help other alcoholics achieve sobriety is routinely extended to drug addicts in these parts. I'm not suggesting that this is wrong, or that addicts shouldn't be welcomed in AA- just observing that the reality of the situation is different from AA's official position. At some point GSO will have to address this issue head on. Either AA as an organization will become greatly reduced in size as the older generation retires to the great meeting hall in the sky, or it will officially embrace other chemical dependencies. The current message that non-alcoholic addicts cannot become members is routinely disregarded, which may simply be AA's group conscience at work, or may be evidence of AA's message being undermined by improper group actions. Regardless, it would be nice to see GSO acknowledge that this is taking place, and offer more realistic guidance to AA groups about a policy regarding non-alcoholics in AA.